It is painful to read some of the stupidity that people actually believe. Normally I stay away far away from it but for whatever reason, today I ventured out. It was a total monkeyfuck.
Some guy said that there were Enron papers in WTC1. I’ve been over this a thousand times. Let’s do a simple logic exercise.
Enron was not investigated until October 26. That is AFTER September 11. That means, for those who don’t understand this simple truth, that there were no “Enron investigation documents” (whatever those are) created until October, which comes AFTER September. Which means September 11 already happened.
I feel like I am explaining this to a three year old.
But this was the “exchange” if you can call it that:
He then filled my Twitter page with invective:
I replied a few times more, until realizing I was speaking to someone who probably likes to go outside and shout at cars:
And he continued with his crazy:
And that is why I don’t discuss conspiracy theories. Because no matter how much logic you try to shove down their throats, they will never get it. They always feel they have some special knowledge that trumps your knowledge. It is a futile game, and not very enjoyable.
I sorry that happen. Why didn’t yu block him
So he could brother you? And why did think God and Bible is just that anti-911 crap?
Don’t let yourself be bothered by fools like that. He is just a zombie with a computer. He has learned how to type, but unfortunately he has not yet learned how to reason.
Gracias, Leo. Is my point a good one though? Isn’t that single point about the chronology enough to stop this nonsense? Why is it so ineffective to point it out??
Cara, you cannot reason with a zombie. Zombies are driven by primitive hungers which they cannot control. They cannot reason — logical points such as yours cannot penetrate into their skulls because their brains are dead zones. They are The Typing Dead!
Hahahah! The Typing Dead. That’s cute. Thank you Leo. You are no doubt correct but it still rankles to see. Sad.
Cara, just sayin”, your point is well taken, however, in governmental investigative and prosecutorial circles, a huge amount of information is gathered, copied and yes, passed around, well before an actual investigation begins. So, if the official investigation began 5 weeks after 9/11, that would mean lots of papers were probably shuffled about to interested parties (maybe insiders or analysts?).
Whether such papers were ever sent to NYC or ever actually found at the WTC or if there was a connection to 9/11 is unknown, and a mightly stretch, yet possible.
I always questioned the Saudi Prince’s offer of millions of $s to NYC which was rejected. Strange.. a town founded on Dutch principles of capitalism refusing to take free money…hhhmmm? Certainly, given your description of the astute business acumen of the brains of Enron, then were Enron NYC, would not have Enron taken the money?
Joseph, how on earth is it “possible”? Explain that. Just start there. Tell me how Enron documents could be in the WTC.
Perhaps I was too brusque in my previous comment. Let me ask a few other questions:
Why would Enron’s documents be in New York at all since the investigation began in Washington DC and Enron is based in Houston?
Why would they be “stored” if it was an active investigation?
I do not accept that there is all this other paperwork before an investigation – it is an indistinct argument. What papers? Generated by whom in what capacity?
But assuming it is possible (and it is not), why would they be in the WTC?
Lastly, what good could it possibly have done? Enron collapsed. People went to prison. It seems to me there didn’t need to be any conspiracy between 9/11 and Enron.
It bothers me a great deal that people conflate these two events and ascribe meaning where there is none.
There were 30 TeraBytes of data/documents in the Lay Skilling case. There were over 10 Terabytes of data in the EBS case. What documents were missing? What evidence was missing? They were not in the WTC.
There was massive amounts of data (documents, email and video) that proved there was network control software running the EIN all along and the EIN was an application layer business.This is now known as a cloud service.
There was no lie at the Analyst conference. The DOJ and their witnesses lied that the the Shelby II video was played when it was not. The lies were the witnesses and the DOJ hiding evidence and using false evidence to convince people Shelby II was played and a lie had been told at the Analyst Conference.
Unfortunately most people will blindly hate all things Enron and not look at the facts. That attitude is how corrupt governments get away with taking over from their citizens. Blind hatred eventually hurts all people.
Simply put, information, once gathered and recorded, for whatever reason, whether electronically or otherwise, becomes, by its very nature, subject to research by anyone with an interest in “information”. Nothing is secret anymore. Industrial espionage by folks who specialize in such matters, could, to the right entrpreneur become cash if provided to the right people, IOWs, those who have a “need” to know, whether legally or illegally.
Just sayin’ that if the Feds were gathering info on Enron for months prior to October 2001, some low-level photocopy person may possibly be on the payroll of an industrial investigator, who, once the info was obtained could very well sell such info to the highest bidder, whether in NYC, DC or Houston. Wall street traders, as you know, feed on speculation like sharks on blood. Whic is it? Sell the rumour, buy the fact? Or is it vice versa? Who decides whether something is factual or not? Also, is it not possible that alll the trading people at the WTC could have reams of open source Enron research on hand, merely to decide whether to invest in or whatever, Enron? IOWs, it would be a stretch to believe that there were NO papers of anykind referring to Enron at the WTC? The stretch is connectiiong innocent paperwork regarding Enron with 9/11.
I am saying anything is possible in this day and age. I am not saying that there is a specific connection between Enron and 9/11.
I would agree in principle with that, but what does it have to do with the supposed Enron documents?
First, that is a huge if. And why would the government be gathering info on Enron? Everything was public; all they had to do was check out the company’s 10-Ks and 8-Ks. And there wasn’t “months”. Enron only began to wobble in late September/early October. Therefore, there was no time for “info gathering for months.” Furthermore, the government doesn’t use Kinkos; it has its own facilities. Those who operate it are not “low-level copy people” – they are people with security clearances. Who would they bid these Enron docs out to that they would appear in the WTC? And how would a “low level copy person” know which documents were important since no real investigation had been formed yet?
Oh, and I guess it is unimportant but do you have a whiff a proof of any of this?
No they don’t. That’s called insider trading and people go to prison for it. And that still has nothing to do with Enron.
Documents about Enron were all over the place. What isn’t all over the place was “investigation documents”. The implication is that there was something the government had to destroy – some document so explosive 9/11 had to happen instead of, say, an FBI agent either grabbing it or you know, actually getting a search warrant for it. So why would investigation documents be in the WTC? Investigation documents that had so far not even had an official investigative purpose?
You’re spinning straw men left and right.
The point of this conspiracy is that Enron was somehow involved in 9/11, not that there might have been some Enron dude’s office phone number on a piece of paper in the WTC.
@Observer2000, amen. I love the simple elegance of that point. What was missing?
Cara, conspiracy theorists must rely on straw men arguments to make their points since the facts do not support their premise.
@Anonymous, I agree. I think the 9/11 Troofers hate President Bush – they believe he made or let 9/11 happen – and they also incorrectly believe that Bush was best friends with Ken Lay, which is demonstrably false. Therefore, however, they reason that 9/11 COULD have been done to help out Ken Lay.
But they have to make up stuff like Joseph does – it was a copier to felt this way, and did this act, and this is how “investigation documents” ended up in the WTC.
Fine, maybe. You can write a novel based on that. But show me a fact. Just one fact. They can’t do it. To then, the fact that there were no facts is, in fact, proof that there was a conspiracy!
It is crazy. This is why I usually avoid the subject.
Why would Enron’s documents be in New York at all since the investigation began in Washington DC and Enron is based in Houston?
NYC is the financial capital of the World. Enron was, at the time, I believe the most leveraged corporation in America, if not the World. Even the slightest hint that something goes wrong with Enron is of paramount importance to the finacial community in NYC. Know that for evey insider trading scandal you see on TV, there are dozens more that go unreported by the media, and yes, hundreds more that are never even found out. Cara, I am saying that the “spirit” of what the smartest boys in the room were moving forward was not limited to Enron in Houston. The boys don’t deserve that much credit. Many, many more, folks who thought they were smarter than Enron were doing the same as Enron. Those smartest boys on Wall Street get the “word”on a company’s best kept secrets way before they should. That’s what makes capitalism great.
http://www.buytherumorsellthefact.com/
“Who would they bid these Enron docs out to that they would appear in the WTC? And how would a “low level copy person” know which documents were important since no real investigation had been formed yet?”
Those who have a financial interest….moles are everywhere….investigators are trained in various methods of collection of information. Investigators do what they have to to get information. The secret to good resultant intelligence is gathering vast amounts of information, if necessary, and analysis by the trained eye results in useful information.
From Wikopedia:
“The rising use of the internet has also extended opportunities for industrial espionage with the aim of sabotage. In the early 2000s, it was noticed that energy companies were increasingly coming under attack from hackers. Energy power systems, doing jobs like monitoring power grids or water flow, once isolated from the other computer networks, were now being connected to the internet, leaving them more vulnerable, having historically few built-in security features.[20] The use of these methods of industrial espionage have increasingly became a concern for governments, due to potential attacks by terrorist groups or hostile foreign governments.”
1.Person A has position X.
2.Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including: 1.Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position.
2.Quoting an opponent’s words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent’s actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]
3.Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person’s arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
4.Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5.Presenting an oversimplification of the opponent’s position.
3.Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed